Comments on: Torture is Illegal–the Case Against Social Promotion http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/ Classroom Management and Classroom Discipline Strategies from the Real World Mon, 19 Dec 2011 04:31:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Rho http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-15272 Rho Thu, 01 Sep 2011 01:21:55 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-15272 This year I have a 9th grade girl who, according to her IEP, reads at "lower elementary level, and writes at lower first grade level." Another girl is even worse. My 6 year old grandson reads better than either one of these girls. They have been in self-contained classrooms with special ed teachers until they get to high school. Then they are thrown into classes they have no hope of passing, with one time a day to go to the "resource room" for help with study skills with special ed teacher. That is what inclusion is at our high school. This happens year after year with 8-10 students in our small rural high school. It is ridiculous to expect me to somehow "modify" the curriculum and what they need to learn to do well on the OGT to that level. There's an awful lot of extra money that comes with a speced student, but I have yet to see that money spent on real help, an aide or spec ed teacher IN OUR CLASSROOMS, or into a room with a teacher trained to help them. Oh, and they can get an A in "Study Skills" class even if they flunk every other class. Go figure! This year I have a 9th grade girl who, according to her IEP, reads at “lower elementary level, and writes at lower first grade level.” Another girl is even worse. My 6 year old grandson reads better than either one of these girls.
They have been in self-contained classrooms with special ed teachers until they get to high school. Then they are thrown into classes they have no hope of passing, with one time a day to go to the “resource room” for help with study skills with special ed teacher. That is what inclusion is at our high school. This happens year after year with 8-10 students in our small rural high school. It is ridiculous to expect me to somehow “modify” the curriculum and what they need to learn to do well on the OGT to that level. There’s an awful lot of extra money that comes with a speced student, but I have yet to see that money spent on real help, an aide or spec ed teacher IN OUR CLASSROOMS, or into a room with a teacher trained to help them.
Oh, and they can get an A in “Study Skills” class even if they flunk every other class. Go figure!

]]> By: Craig Seganti http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-15266 Craig Seganti Tue, 09 Aug 2011 23:23:59 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-15266 Cecilia-- I'm not sure what kind of procedures you refer to, since of course the procedures I recommend are in the book. Could you clarify that? Craig Cecilia–

I’m not sure what kind of procedures you refer to, since of course the procedures I recommend are in the book. Could you clarify that?

Craig

]]> By: CED http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-15265 CED Fri, 05 Aug 2011 03:16:10 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-15265 Hi, Thanks for the opportunity to share and ask. I started teaching in 2003. I did tours in Elementary School teaching Spanish Speakers (with Open Court) and in High School, teaching Spanish. My internal philosophy prevented me for a long time from understanding that discipline springs from structure. I personally had no structure. However, I have always had the capability of being objectively critical of myself (even if I did have to go through a few tantrums to get there.) So I have been working to find the discipline method that would work for me. A couple of years ago, I had an atrocious year in an academically last place (or so) school with 9th and 10th graders that gave me nightmares three weeks after school let out. To be concise, putting together all the students in my 5 classes, I literally had 50% (Okay, 49%, but what's the difference?) of students with a GPA of 1.9 and below. I checked each and every report card, and none of those students even had a C to their name, not even in PE. The other 50% were mostly A-B students, but with just a handful of students reaching 3.5 or above and one 4.0. My class was not typical (for reasons too long to go into), but that didn’t stop administrators and others from deciding I was a bad teacher who could not control her class. So that Summer, I decided to “figure it out” or quit teaching. I came up with a similar philosophy to Craig’s, but more wishy-washy. And even so, WOW did it make a difference. Not a peep out of my classes for a good long time, except for learning. It deteriorated because my philosophy was not water tight, and I still had problems delineating between what was considered unacceptable behavior, etc. There was always a “fine line” between the child’s “freedom” and the class’ need. I couldn’t stamp out the manipulating. (If you’re wondering, I also had a much better situation, with barely one quarter of my students at 1.9 GPA and below. And even then those students had some Cs. I also had five 4.0 students and a good amount of more academically inclined students. That year, everyone complimented me. Wow, you really got yourself together. Yeah, right. There’s a grain of truth in that. But it’s not all about me.) Well, this Summer I found Craig's book. Now that I don’t have to worry about deciding what’s acceptable or not acceptable, I still have to work hard to produce some good procedures and make sure that I can teach them. So, if you’re reading this, Craig, I could use some actual written guidelines that I can adapt, and not have to make them all up myself. I’d pay for that. Thank you. I’ll let you know how it goes this year. --CED Hi,

Thanks for the opportunity to share and ask.

I started teaching in 2003. I did tours in Elementary School teaching Spanish Speakers (with Open Court) and in High School, teaching Spanish. My internal philosophy prevented me for a long time from understanding that discipline springs from structure. I personally had no structure.

However, I have always had the capability of being objectively critical of myself (even if I did have to go through a few tantrums to get there.) So I have been working to find the discipline method that would work for me.

A couple of years ago, I had an atrocious year in an academically last place (or so) school with 9th and 10th graders that gave me nightmares three weeks after school let out. To be concise, putting together all the students in my 5 classes, I literally had 50% (Okay, 49%, but what’s the difference?) of students with a GPA of 1.9 and below. I checked each and every report card, and none of those students even had a C to their name, not even in PE. The other 50% were mostly A-B students, but with just a handful of students reaching 3.5 or above and one 4.0.

My class was not typical (for reasons too long to go into), but that didn’t stop administrators and others from deciding I was a bad teacher who could not control her class.

So that Summer, I decided to “figure it out” or quit teaching. I came up with a similar philosophy to Craig’s, but more wishy-washy. And even so, WOW did it make a difference. Not a peep out of my classes for a good long time, except for learning. It deteriorated because my philosophy was not water tight, and I still had problems delineating between what was considered unacceptable behavior, etc. There was always a “fine line” between the child’s “freedom” and the class’ need. I couldn’t stamp out the manipulating.

(If you’re wondering, I also had a much better situation, with barely one quarter of my students at 1.9 GPA and below. And even then those students had some Cs. I also had five 4.0 students and a good amount of more academically inclined students. That year, everyone complimented me. Wow, you really got yourself together. Yeah, right. There’s a grain of truth in that. But it’s not all about me.)

Well, this Summer I found Craig’s book. Now that I don’t have to worry about deciding what’s acceptable or not acceptable, I still have to work hard to produce some good procedures and make sure that I can teach them. So, if you’re reading this, Craig, I could use some actual written guidelines that I can adapt, and not have to make them all up myself. I’d pay for that.

Thank you. I’ll let you know how it goes this year. –CED

]]> By: Stanford Chittom http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-14569 Stanford Chittom Thu, 19 May 2011 04:24:58 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-14569 Wonderful blog, would love to see a bit more media though! Wonderful blog, would love to see a bit more media though!

]]> By: steveo http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-10877 steveo Sat, 05 Mar 2011 01:50:03 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-10877 I am a first year teacher after having spent the better part of 20 years in industry. I implemented "the rules" on Monday this week after a year long struggle with 6 classes (HS Math). After 1st period copying rules and starting the process and many detentions given, 3 students got up and walked out - to guidance. Word spread quickly and the principal and my supervisor were notified and instructed me (by 2nd period) to pull the rules and stop issuing detentions. I still believe in the process, but have found that the administration is DEAD against these rules that: 1. have a "negative tone" 2. don't agree with this school's culture 3. employ an element of "fear" to discipline the students which is illegal??? HELP!!! I'm really tired of dealing with all of the nonsense that I tolerate every day. Any suggestions? I am a first year teacher after having spent the better part of 20 years in industry.

I implemented “the rules” on Monday this week after a year long struggle with 6 classes (HS Math). After 1st period copying rules and starting the process and many detentions given, 3 students got up and walked out – to guidance.

Word spread quickly and the principal and my supervisor were notified and instructed me (by 2nd period) to pull the rules and stop issuing detentions.

I still believe in the process, but have found that the administration is DEAD against these rules that:
1. have a “negative tone”
2. don’t agree with this school’s culture
3. employ an element of “fear” to discipline the students which is illegal???

HELP!!! I’m really tired of dealing with all of the nonsense that I tolerate every day.

Any suggestions?

]]> By: Izola Brunt http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-3725 Izola Brunt Thu, 13 May 2010 01:38:52 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-3725 Thanks for this neat relationship entry. It will just help mine out. Thanks again! Thanks for this neat relationship entry. It will just help mine out. Thanks again!

]]> By: Craig Seganti http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-3357 Craig Seganti Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:36:57 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-3357 I am always trying to minimize the words necessary to get a point across. The bottom line is if a student is not required to do the consequence, then it is not a consequence, and if there is no consequence for not doing the consequence, it will take students about one day to figure that out and you might as well have no discipline at all. I only allow students to change detention days with a note from their parent, and that should not be common. Yes, the administrator only has to back your consequence and they should be thankful for that. However, they can make it much easier on themselves if they make announcement to your class that things will be more difficult for the student--there should be an added consequence if they have to go to administration before complying with you. I am always trying to minimize the words necessary to get a point across. The bottom line is if a student is not required to do the consequence, then it is not a consequence, and if there is no consequence for not doing the consequence, it will take students about one day to figure that out and you might as well have no discipline at all. I only allow students to change detention days with a note from their parent, and that should not be common. Yes, the administrator only has to back your consequence and they should be thankful for that. However, they can make it much easier on themselves if they make announcement to your class that things will be more difficult for the student–there should be an added consequence if they have to go to administration before complying with you.

]]> By: Alex http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-3328 Alex Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:33:16 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-3328 Craig, I have read and love your book. I do have a question on the section dealing with students coming in for detention. I write referrals for every student that does not report to his/her detention on the assigned day. Today, one of my administrators chastised me for the fact that I send referrals for this reason. She told me that I should not bother sending referrals because all she does is ask the students when they will serve their detention with me with no other consequence. She also said the students should be allowed a day of their choosing to serve rather than me telling them the day to report. She stated that they probably did not show because the day I assigned was "inappropriate." She also said if students do not report that I should just allow them to pick another day with no consequence. I really value any advice you have on this situation! > > Thank you for your time! Craig,
I have read and love your book. I do have a question on the section dealing with students
coming in for detention. I write referrals for every student that does not report to his/her detention on the assigned day. Today, one of my administrators chastised me for the fact that I send referrals for this
reason. She told me that I should not bother sending referrals because all she does is ask the students when they will serve their detention with me with no other consequence. She also said the students should be allowed a day of their choosing to serve rather than me telling them the day to report. She stated that they probably did not show because the day I assigned was “inappropriate.” She also said if students do not report that I should just allow them to pick another day with no consequence. I really value any advice you have on this situation!
>
> Thank you for your time!

]]> By: Craig Seganti http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-2740 Craig Seganti Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:50:23 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-2740 Well, punishment and detentions do work. I have 20 years evidence and hundreds of emails to prove it--as in 'saved my teaching career' proving it. What they do, and I'm not being sarcastic, is exactly this: fix the relationship between teacher and pupil, from sibling arguing with sibling to respect for the adult ( and therefore facilitating the development of the student in the environment ). Relationship: noun, the way in which two or more people or organizations regard and behave toward each other . The problem is that relationship by many educators is being defined as some sort of endless dialogue, which is not relationship but endless dialogue. I highly recommend 'The Sibling Society' by Robert Bly, which discusses how adults are treating the young as peers, and the damage that is doing. Well, punishment and detentions do work. I have 20 years evidence and hundreds of emails to prove it–as in ‘saved my teaching career’ proving it. What they do, and I’m not being sarcastic, is exactly this: fix the relationship between teacher and pupil, from sibling arguing with sibling to respect for the adult ( and therefore facilitating the development of the student in the environment ).
Relationship: noun, the way in which two or more people or organizations regard and behave toward each other .
The problem is that relationship by many educators is being defined as some sort of endless dialogue, which is not relationship but endless dialogue.
I highly recommend ‘The Sibling Society’ by Robert Bly, which discusses how adults are treating the young as peers, and the damage that is doing.

]]> By: Christine http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/2009/08/25/torture-is-illegal-the-case-against-social-promotion/comment-page-1/#comment-2705 Christine Sun, 14 Feb 2010 08:11:42 +0000 http://www.classroomdiscipline101.com/classroom-management/?p=287#comment-2705 Hi, Craig. I loved your book. It is so down to earth and real life as opposed to liberal goody-good stuff we have to do at our school. I am giving our Deputy Principal a selection of sections of your book to see if I can get buy in from senior administration at our school. But we have a management team that think punishments and detentions don't work. Any discipline has to be looked at in terms of fixing the relationship between teacher and pupil. I'm thinking that I may have to tone down my expectations of being able to teach 100% of the time if I don't get support from management. Any ideas how I go about turning the management team at our school away from the time consuming and new, hip thing called restorative justice? Hi, Craig. I loved your book. It is so down to earth and real life as opposed to liberal goody-good stuff we have to do at our school. I am giving our Deputy Principal a selection of sections of your book to see if I can get buy in from senior administration at our school. But we have a management team that think punishments and detentions don’t work. Any discipline has to be looked at in terms of fixing the relationship between teacher and pupil. I’m thinking that I may have to tone down my expectations of being able to teach 100% of the time if I don’t get support from management. Any ideas how I go about turning the management team at our school away from the time consuming and new, hip thing called restorative justice?

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